How to Grow a YouTube Channel in 2025: A Case Study [YouTube Marketing with Natalie Brunell, Part 1]

Tags

Niche Marketing Podcast, John Bertino, Natalie Brunell, Coin Stories, cryptocurrency, YouTube, storytelling, community engagement, content creation, monetization, digital media

Transcript

Introduction to Coin Stories 

[0:59] Some of my first interviews got 10, 20, 50,000 views and listens. I was able to make… And so my audio downloads exceed my YouTube views, but then it changed. The primary source of my revenue is YouTube—it’s really thumbnail-driven. Today, I think online, the less produced content actually performs better than the overproduced content. In the last three months, where I’ve prioritized shorties, my subscriber count has just turbocharged. The reason I actually got on it and started to post any videos is because an impersonator had 180,000 followers. What makes people watch? Well, I think it’s…

[1:43] And we’re back with another episode of the Niche Marketing Podcast. As always, I’m your host, John Bertino, marketing agency matchmaker and consultant with The Agency Guide. If you’re unhappy with your marketing agency—and unfortunately, many people are—please give us a shout at theagencyguide.com. We represent 300 agencies across the country, Europe, and a few other countries as well, and we’d be delighted to see how we can help.

[2:04] Today, I’m so excited to have our lovely guest, Natalie Brunel.

The Journey Begins

[2:08] Host of Coin Stories, the very successful YouTube show. Natalie, thanks for coming by. Yeah, thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.

Yeah. So, whereas I know that most of the time you’re probably getting asked about Bitcoin and cryptocurrency and things like that, today, we really want to focus on all that you’ve accomplished with your YouTube show, which is really blowing up. I’ve seen some incredible interviews recently from RFK, Vivek Ramaswamy, Michael Saylor. Really impressive what you’ve done with the show.

Well, thank you so much. I feel like I’m an accidental YouTube content creator, but I’m very, very grateful for the freedom and the opportunities it’s offered me.
So accidental. Tell us about that. How did you get into this and what inspired you to keep going?

So, my background is journalism. I was a TV broadcast journalist for about 10 years, and I’ve always loved interviewing people. So I actually had a hobby podcast that I started in about 2016 or 17, where I would essentially interview other journalists, social media influencers, politicians about their career paths—where they started, what inspired them, what obstacles did they overcome, and what advice they would offer to people.

[3:18] And then I got around that same time really interested in Bitcoin. And I tried to pitch stories about Bitcoin at the news networks that I worked at, but I could only cover it very, very, very, very infrequently and in a way that I just felt was not doing Bitcoin justice because of everything that I 

was learning. So, I had a mentor who said, well, why don’t you interview Bitcoiners on your podcast? And I thought, okay, this would be interesting. Maybe I’ll release a season. By the way, no one was really listening to this show. I mean, I had a couple hundred listeners a month to this hobby podcast. And I started contacting the Bitcoiners who I learned from, people who had written books or had their own YouTube channels or were successful entrepreneurs that pivoted to Bitcoin. 

[4:03] And surprisingly, a lot of them said, yes, they would love to discuss why they got into Bitcoin and why they believe in it. So, I was planning on just releasing a couple of episodes. And then that was that. I was going to continue being a TV broadcast journalist in Los Angeles.

But those episodes actually just took off. The first season did. Oh, yeah. I mean, there was such an audience. There was such a demand for this information. And I started getting requested by TV networks to talk about Bitcoin. I started having offers to have the podcast sponsored.

So, I hit a fork in the road where I needed to decide, was I going to stay in my career, the only thing I’ve really known since college, being a TV broadcast journalist and going from network to network, or was I going to pivot and become an entrepreneur and essentially start my own channel and media company? And I thought that it was scary and risky, but I decided to just jump been full speed ahead because I really believe in Bitcoin. And I think there’s so much good to be done in educating people about it. And I felt like my background had prepared me for it since I had focused so much on communication and storytelling. 

Transitioning to Video 

[5:08] So yeah, three years later, here I am. Yeah. Okay. I want to unpack that a little bit because I think one of the most challenging things with those trying to get a YouTube show off the ground is committing to it. Right. So, was it three years ago that you made that pivot from the prior show model to the current show model? Yes. So, three years ago, and this was all audio at first. Okay. 2021. 

[5:31] Yes. It’s 2021. And it was all audio at first because my previous show, it was called Career Stories. And it was just an audio podcast that I would release every couple of weeks or so. And so, I racked up these interviews with Bitcoiners. And at first, I did record them on video, but my plan was just to release them in audio because I had, I was busy.

I had a full-time other job as a reporter. And Zoom, right? Not like this. Yeah, but actually a lot of people started requesting videos and there was such a demand that I just kept it going after the 12 original episodes or so that I had recorded. I decided to keep it going and eventually, yeah, just built it out into my full-time job being the show. So, you bundled some content before you released any of it, it sounds like. Yes. And am I hearing you correctly that more or less immediately the analytics were 10x what you ever saw before? Oh, yeah. I mean, some of my first interviews got.

[6:29] Uh 10 20 50 000 views and listens so that was nothing like what my previous hobby show had and I became more active on x that’s where I really um created an audience because everyone was having these conversations on x it was something that was a platform that I wasn’t that active on as a news journalist but crypto twitter bitcoin twitter that was a real thing and I was engaging I was following a lot of the different voices that I wanted to hear from on a podcast. And that’s where I shared the content. And when you share it and there are accounts that have big followings that reshare it, you can gain a following very, very quickly, which is essentially what happened with my show.

Yeah. So, sticking with those early days of coin stories, were you doing everything yourself from the editing to the social posting to all the little nuances that go in managing or distributing content across multiple channels? Because it’s a lot. Yes, I did everything myself. I feel like my background sort of prepared me for it because my journalism studies essentially taught me how to write. 

[7:37] Report, edit, shoot, all of it. I was a multimedia journalist for quite some time. So, I knew how to edit. It wasn’t anything completely new or foreign to me. I kept editing it until almost just like a couple of weeks ago, really, because I didn’t want to let it go. It’s really hard when it’s your product and your face on it to be able to entrust it in other people.

But I learned that you can be so much more productive if you focus your time on what actually generates revenue and what actually gets you to grow the channel as opposed to things like editing, which isn’t my real passion. Yeah. Out of curiosity, what editing tool were you using most of that time or did you bounce around? So, for audio, I used Adobe Audition and for video, I use Adobe Premiere. Sticking with the early days, were there any specific challenges that come to 

The Rise of Coin Stories 

[8:25] mind that really were bottlenecks in ratcheting things up? Or was it as soon as you switched to interviewing Bitcoiners, just things took off and. 

[8:35] Pretty much smooth sailing. Well, I feel like I was really lucky because the timing was the bull market of 2020 into 2021. Those were good days. Yeah, there was just so much attention on Bitcoin and people were hungry for the content. And I think, you know, Oprah has this quote that is, luck is preparation meets opportunity. And so again, I feel like I had the background as a journalist. 

And then the opportunity was that everyone wanted to suddenly learn about Bitcoin, understand Bitcoin. 

[9:04] So I was lucky in that sense. But also, if you looked at the landscape of other creators or voices, there were not a lot of female voices. And so, I feel like I reached a new audience. I’m not someone who comes from a technical computer programming or finance background. So, to reach that mainstream audience, I think that my voice resonated with people who also were not technical and didn’t have their MBAs but just wanted to really learn and engage with the community. And my show is very, very approachable.

It’s not something where you need a PhD in engineering to understand. It’s for the everyday person. Yeah. I was watching some footage for sure. And I would concur, right? Like some of the content, depending on the interviewee, gets a little more sophisticated, but other stuff is very accessible. I’m kind of on that borderline. I know enough to be dangerous, but I’m by no means crypto native. 

Surviving the Crypto Winter 

[9:56] Yeah, I would totally agree. So, what about during the crypto winter of what was that like 2023- ish. Did viewership slow down enough to the point where you started to get concerned or was it just an opportunity to kind of reset, recalibrate, and you were still going guns a blazing? Well, one thing 

I learned is that crypto winters are a time for building. And yes, obviously with the price tanking, I was definitely nervous that my business would not be able to survive. 

[10:23] But I was surprised to see those industries like Bitcoin, they have builders who take the winters and really invest and take the time. And so, they want to grow, and they want to invest in podcasts and sponsors. So, I never lost sponsorships, which I’m so grateful for.

I was able to grow my sponsorships and continue to produce the show. And I’m very, very grateful for that time, too, because with the price dropping, it meant that not just me, but my viewers could accumulate more Bitcoin. I think it was like a blessing, actually, because before it was running away from us, I thought it was going to go to the six figures.

And obviously, when you’re trying to just save, it’s not as easy to purchase Bitcoin at 100 as it was when it dropped down to 16K. So, I see that time as a blessing. But yeah, I was really surprised. I thought that suddenly all my business would disappear, all my viewers would disappear.

And there’s definitely a lull. I mean, viewership changes in the bull market versus a bear market, but nothing that really impacted my bottom line, which I was grateful for. And the subs kind of just continue to go up and to the right, maybe a little bit more slowly than it was in 2021. The thing that slowed down most was actually Twitter followers. So, during the bull market 2021, I was gaining about 1,000 followers a day, which is crazy to think about. 

[11:38] Today, it’s not like that. I think the algorithms changed a little bit. And I’m not an expert in these platforms. but sometimes different types of content is prioritized over maybe financial education, which has been a little disheartening because I feel like over the last two years on platforms like Twitter, X, whatever you want to call it, 

Understanding Viewer Engagement 

[11:56] it’s boosted content more of the political genre, which mine is definitely not a political show. You have hundreds of thousands of followers across multiple platforms. YouTube alone, you’re just on the door of 200,000. Simply put.

[12:12] What makes people watch? Well, I think it’s the guests. I really am grateful that I’ve been able to get solid guests who are providing value to the viewers in terms of learning more about Bitcoin and understanding the macro headlines and what’s happening in the economy. So, it’s important to just stay on top of everything that’s current so that you’re educating the audience on what’s happening now and what they need broken down for them.

But also, I have a lot of evergreen content that people can tune into, and it might be months old, but it still carries a lot of value and education for the average viewer. My first episodes, people still find them, like those first couple of episodes that I didn’t know would turn into this full-time show that I’m doing. 

[12:58] They have something special about them because I got the full backstory of some of the biggest voices in the space. So, they start at the very beginning explaining where they’re from, their childhood, what careers they pursued, the obstacles that they faced along the way, and then what got them interested in Bitcoin and why they believe in it so much. And those stories literally live forever.

They’re like autobiographies. And I love some of those early episodes. You tackle some things that are more headline-driven and news-driven, but then you also have this evergreen content that can live forever that’s about topics that we discuss on a daily basis and speak more to the heart of matters like economics and purpose and saving for the future. 

[13:42] So there’s a mix of content on the page. You touched on multiple things there…

Evergreen vs. Trending Content 

[13:46] that I wanted to get to, so that was awesome. But let’s unpack it a little bit more. evergreen versus temporal trending content. My eyes perked up when you said that you put a concerted effort into making evergreen content. 

[14:03] To this day, when you’re planning out content, are you like, okay, I need X amount of stuff that doesn’t have a timeline associated with it is likely to be more evergreen. I’m sure in crypto, it’s hard because it’s always changing. So then just the sheer nature of it. But how much is there a concerted effort to create that evergreen content versus when it happens, it happens? I definitely think about both. So, I want to stay on top of the news.

But I also think that there are people coming in who watch my content because they’re trying to learn about Bitcoin for the first time. So, you need to simplify the message, and you need to keep that educational content flowing because there’s always someone new that wants to hear exactly what is Bitcoin? How does it fit into the greater financial system? And those are things that are very evergreen. 

[14:45] And then also I think because I cover these sorts of human-interest sides of my guests where they’re talking about themselves, their lives, their careers, those are also more evergreen. Because you’re learning about the person, what inspired them, what drove them, what was difficult for them. And that, again, I mean, that lives forever. You learn so much about people.

So especially if I have a new guest, I like to really go back in time and learn about their background. And it’s funny because sometimes I’ll watch other shows that my guest will be on. And I do a lot of homework. I do a lot of prep work into my guests. So, if they’ve been on other shows, I try to watch as many of at least the recent shows as possible.

Whereas sometimes I’ll see the guest on another show after mine. And I could tell that they did not watch my interview because they ask exactly the same questions. And I try not to do that. How much prep work? A lot. I mean, I’m sorry. I think that’s another thing, right? Like even, or at least for myself, it is where it’s like, I always want to do some, but I grapple with how much am I overthinking it and almost over preparing for 

Preparation for Success 

[15:48] the interview versus doing myself a favor by doing that extra homework upfront. So how much homework and prep work up front? I mean, I do hours for each guest. Wow. 

[15:59] Hours. Well, a lot of these voices are on multiple shows. And I think it’s not fun for the guests when they’re repeating themselves constantly, but also, you’re not going to get a new viewer. I mean, maybe that viewer really likes that person, but if they’re hearing them say the same answers, why would they watch it? You always want to provide value.

So maybe they said something on another show that I could build off of, or maybe I didn’t understand something that they mentioned, and they could break it down for me a little bit in a simpler way. Or maybe I find some nugget that’s really interesting and I decide to ask them a more personal question. I just think that it sets you apart if you can make the interviews as unique as possible because so many of the guests that we talk to, they rotate around different shows. Hours of homework. Okay. Yeah. I’ve been schooled. 

[16:44] I dig it. Through my content journey, it’s been a couple of years now, we focus primarily on long form and then carving out a few shorts. But we’re thinking a lot more about, hey, there’s also that content that’s in the middle, the five-minute, 10-minute extractions that can be done. So, I’m curious, do you mostly just do full episode and some shorts? Or do you take maybe a full episode and break it up for YouTube into five-minute, 10-minute videos that might be able to rank in the algorithm for certain keywords 

Short Content Strategies 

[17:14] that the whole episode might not? This is a great question. So, I’ve experimented with YouTube, and I’m always just so fascinated by what we find. So, my full interviews perform the best. Then shorties. And then I’ve tried clips where it’s like cut down maybe a long form answer to a single question. So, five minutes or 10 minutes. 

[17:36] Those did not perform well. I scrapped that. I was doing that for about six months or so. And I decided it wasn’t worth the effort that we were putting in to edit those as well as create the thumbnails. Because that’s one thing that’s tough. YouTube is really thumbnail driven and SEO title driven. And I’m not an expert in those, but I try my best.

But to create several catchy thumbnails for say one interview is challenging for sure. So, I found that I put my focus into the full interview, and I have time code. So, if people want to hit a certain topic, they can definitely go in there, scrub through and find it. But the shorties have done well. And I found that through consistency.

So, I try to post one shorty a day. That definitely gets some algorithm going where it draws more attention to your page, and it funnels more viewers in. So, in the last like three months where I’ve prioritized shorties, my subscriber count has just turbocharged. So, I’m very, very grateful that I adopted that strategy. I’m asking you mostly about YouTube, and I think you’re responding in the context of YouTube. 

[18:36] But while we’re on the subject, what about Instagram and or TikTok? What’s your cadence of short form video content releases on those platforms? So, I really need to be better about TikTok. I know there’s a wide audience to be reached there. 

Expanding to New Platforms 

[18:48] It’s just not a platform that I use myself. And so, it’s been difficult to incorporate it. TikTok has so many younger viewers that I would love to reach. But anytime that I’ve posted content there, it performs the worst out of all the different platforms. I’m not sure if I understand the TikTok strategy very well. And then Instagram is actually new to me. I’ve decided to pivot my page. And before I saw Instagram as sort of my own personal portal where I would just post things that are personal to my life and people who wanted to get to know me as just an individual.

But I felt like I was missing out on potentially reaching people with the Bitcoin message. And a lot of my girlfriends, they spend the majority of their time on Instagram. So, I want to reach them. I want to reach them with Bitcoin education. So, I started to share the shorties that I had created for YouTube on Instagram. And they’ve been performing about the same as the shorties on YouTube. Do you make any aesthetic tweaks to the short form content or shorties between YouTube and Instagram, or do you just post the same thing? I don’t at this time. 

[19:49] If I’m able to learn more about the differences in the platforms and what works, then maybe I will amend that. But for now, starting out, it’s just been the same shorties. Sometimes the cover art is different, but other than that, they’re the same. You might change the thumbnail image, huh? And then as far as TikTok goes, I know you said you haven’t seen great performance, but is the reason you haven’t ramped up there mostly just hours in a day, mental bandwidth, or just not sure what the strategy is yet? Why not? I mean, you’ve made it this far. Yeah. Hundreds of thousands of viewers.

You must be close to a million followers, subscribers across all platforms. Why not just jump right on TikTok? Yeah, that’s a great question. I feel like I just, because I’m still posting the videos myself, I don’t have any team member that’s focused on that and owning that. I just forget to get around to TikTok. And I’m not the best at, I guess, marketing it on TikTok.

I would love to learn more about that platform. The reason I actually got on it and started to post any videos is because an impersonator, someone reached out saying, is this you? And it had 180,000 followers on TikTok. And so I was like, wow, well, maybe there is an audience there, but it’s definitely something I need to prioritize and focus on. I just haven’t. Something tells me no matter how big my show gets, I’ll never have an impersonator, Natalie. 

Addressing Impersonators 

[21:07] I have, you know, this, I’m glad, well, I’m glad you brought that up because I, it’s a warning to viewers and listeners. These impersonators, I get reached out to almost every single day that someone’s trying to get money out of them. Is this really me? I’m on this other platform.

Is this my telegram? And it’s so disheartening because they get all your photos, they scrub the internet, they get your photos, they pretend like it’s you and then they reach out to people trying to get their money for crypto investments. And it’s just, I urge people, unless you see a blue check mark, if you see like, it has to be official, do not trust it. I do not DM people. I do not ask for money. So, I think that that’s an important PSA. 

[21:49] Noted. I know you’re a journalist and a thought leader in crypto before you’re a marketer, right? but clearly, you’ve learned a heck of a lot about the marketing element along the way. 

Community Engagement Strategies 

[22:00] Do you do anything outside of social to re-engage the community, move them through the funnel, so to speak, get them to events, get them to an email marketing list? Have you gone down any of those paths yet? No, I mean, I probably should. I have a newsletter that I launched last year. So, it’s a free email newsletter, thenewsblock.substack.com, where I do a weekly news update. Say that again? It’s called The News Block, and it’s at thenewsblock.substack.com.

So, if people want Bitcoin or economic news that they can digest in 10 minutes or less, we work really hard on that. I have a great team member that’s focused on that with me. But as far as things that drive more marketing, I have not explored that. I probably should, but it’s just, there are only so many hours in the day when you’re doing your show. I mean, I can totally relate. And I think my show… 

[22:54] We speak to a wide array of marketers at different stages, but generally speaking, I’d say our most loyal listeners are those that are, they’re small. They’re just trying to get going. They’re more bootstrapped, more likely to be bootstrapped. They’re trying to do a lot of it themselves. So, I think everybody can relate to that. And it’s, you know, the constant conundrum of any entrepreneur to know when to delegate, how much to delegate, to let go of the reins. 

The Importance of Delegation 

[23:20] These are not uncommon problems. Well, this interview is coming at an interesting time because I am focused on how to grow. And I know that I need to now extend and delegate and bring on more people because, again, you can only do so much. And there are things that would be more productive uses of my time. And so I’m in the process of expanding my team and delegating a little bit more, which is exciting, but it’s difficult. And for people who are new, the idea of trusting someone else sometimes is very, very hard, especially if it’s your product. That’s something that I’ve really struggled with.

I know how to edit it, and I’m going to care so much. Can I actually trust someone else to do this for me? And that’s not always easy, but you have to trust. I think that that’s the best way to grow.

And I just read this phenomenal book called Buy Back Your Time, and it really focuses on that, on how you can be really strategic about bringing on team members and delegating so that it frees up your time to do the things that bring on the most business and revenue generation and allows you to feel like you’re in your bliss and you’re really engaging with your passion and not so much of like the technical or administrative things that you could trust someone else with. Well, Natalie, I know a guy with a lot of marketing resources should you need a little help. All right. 

[24:41] This may seem a little out of the blue, but sticking with this idea of the marketing, audience growth, things like that, I’m really curious to get your take on YouTube amplification, 

Exploring Paid Amplification 

[24:51] as us marketers say, which is basically fancy for a paid budget in YouTube to reach a wider audience. Have you used that at all at any stage? And if so, or if not, you’re still using it. What has the outcome been? How’s that served? 

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[26:12] I have not used that. So, all of the views that I’ve generated have just been organic, non-paid, but it’s something I would look into. I definitely want to allocate more of a budget in order to get new eyeballs. And that’s one of the challenges. I’ve definitely built a niche and people within the Bitcoin community know my show. They’re familiar with it, but it’s really important for me to reach people outside of the community.

I really want to reach them with this really, really important message and education. And they’re not always looking at the pages that I might appear as suggested content on. So, it’s kind of like you got to try new strategies. And I think that employing something like that is definitely something I would consider. I’m really interested in this area. I’d love to get viewers take on this. So if you have a thought on paid YouTube amplification, please put it in the comments. My impression so far, just being genuine, it’s one of these things where the textbook. 

The Great Debate on YouTube Ads 

[27:06] Response you get from people is like, don’t do it. Don’t do it. It’ll screw up your organic metrics on how your content’s really performing. And then if you start reaching people that are less your target audience for one reason or another, and then they’re less engaged, that’s going to hurt your overall viewership. That makes sense at some level. But the other side of me goes, okay, well, this is YouTube. It’s YouTube’s algorithm.

YouTube wants to make more money. YouTube’s algorithm is quite sophisticated. If anybody can identify, you know, who’s likely to be your viewers, it’s Google or Meta, right? And there’s nothing they want more than to put your content in front of prospective people, grow your audience. I mean, it’s self-serving.

So, it doesn’t make sense to me that to give YouTube some sponsorship dollars to promote your content is going to drive your viewership somehow into the ground or hurt it. It just, that just doesn’t make sense. And yet That’s what you’ll hear from most people. That’s interesting. Yeah. I mean, I think it’s worth experimenting because if you find out over a couple months that it’s just not bringing enough people for what you’re paying, then you can always stop it.

But that’s something that I definitely would think about exploring and seeing if it might generate a whole new base of subscribers and listeners. And I’ll say candidly, we’ve experimented with it and it would seem to be serving us well. Oh, good. 

[28:27] You know, it’s helped kind of push the content along a little bit and has slowly started to increase just the organic reach and viewership we’re getting. I mean, it’s still TBD. We’re still testing but stay tuned for the rest of the series because I’m probably going to bring this up in every episode and get everybody’s take. And maybe by the end, we’ll get a collective take on this. Yeah. I mean, you have to employ diverse strategies. SEO is so important. That catchy thumbnail is important.

You can do ads. And in each platform, to your earlier point, it’s kind of unique. It has a unique audience on it. And I’m trying to reach different people on these different platforms. So, my YouTube audience is different from my X audience, which is different from my Instagram audience.

And it’s fascinating just to see the different analytics. Do you try to push your subs on one platform to another? Have you dabbled in that at all? And what’s been your approach? Well, I post everything to X because that’s my primary audience. And I feel like that’s the sort of the headquarters of the Bitcoin community is on X.

So, in everything that I share in terms of my new episodes, I have a link to, hey, if you want to get this on another podcasting platform, here are the links. Or if you want to go to YouTube, it’s on YouTube. But then people on YouTube find me and they have nothing to do with X. And so it’s really interesting to see some of the audience merges, but some are on just one platform. 

[29:46] So it’s just, it’s different behavior on these different social media platforms. Do you know how your listenership compares on audio only through Apple Podcasts, Spotify, things like this compared to YouTube? Yeah. So, I’m actually surprised by this. When I first started, and actually this does kind of make sense. I started with only audio and then I added the YouTube component. How long? Just audio. Gosh, I would say probably five months or so. Okay. A couple months. Yeah. And so, my audio downloads would exceed my YouTube views, but then it changed. And then my YouTube and my video views exceeded my downloads.

So, I take that as a compliment though. I take that as, okay, you want to watch me rather than just listen. But again, sometimes people just want to listen on their phones and not see the video. What I’m working on actually is trying to incorporate the video onto these audio platforms because I know that that’s possible and I have not done that. So you can’t watch my video on Spotify. You can’t watch my video on some of the other podcasting platforms.

You can only watch it on X or YouTube. And I’d like to get to a point this year where if you go on Spotify, you can actually watch the show as well. 

[30:57] Yeah. This reminds me of a section of Gary Vee’s new book. Did you read that by any chance? Shout out Gary Vee. Gary, you got a niche you want to explore? Come on the show, man. 

But he talks about, I mean, simply put that if there’s a feature of a social platform that the platform is trying to get adoption of, you are shooting yourself in the foot not to embrace that feature because they obviously are incentivized to reward those that are utilizing the features they’re trying to get going. It’s an obvious point. And yet I’m in the same situation as you where I’ve gotten some of my video into Spotify, for example. Clearly Spotify would love you to do that, but I’m dragging my feet.

I’m not getting it done. There’s only one of me. One of the challenges with Spotify is that the person has to log into your personal account, your personal Spotify account versus like, um, like giving guest access. I don’t think you can do that. Oh, interesting. And I just can’t have an admin seeing what songs I’m listening to.

That would just be, that’d be a tragedy. That’s too personal. No, way too personal. So, uh, so I haven’t done it yet, but, um, yeah, I think Gary V would certainly 

Monetization Strategies 

[32:06] say, you know, we got to get that video in there. It’s going to help us out. So, all right. So monetization, big subject. 

[32:13] I mean, and, and this is again, one that for me, and I’m sure a lot of listeners is like, okay, I got to figure this part out, you know, because I’ve got into the regular posting cadence. I’ve figured out a lot with the editing and thumbnails. I figured out just, you know, the hashtags and the verbiage, but like at some point I’d like to see this bringing in a little bit more money. Right. Yeah. So what has been your approach to monetizing your YouTube effort to date? Yeah. So, this is actually a really interesting question for me because when I decided to leave my news job.

I had a predictable salary. I had reached a level where I was a senior correspondent, and everything was very predictable and stable. And, um, and my income, like I, I was really good with my income and, and then I decided to become an entrepreneur, and I had no idea if I would make any money at all.

So, when I decided to leave, I told myself that, um, first of all, I’ve always been a good saver, which a lot of Bitcoiners are. So I had essentially a year’s worth where I said, okay, I’m going to give this a year and I will live off of this savings for a year. And if it doesn’t work, then, you know, maybe at that point I pack up and I try to get a news job again, which hopefully doesn’t happen. 

[33:24] But fortunately, because there was such interest in the show and I was reaching a new audience, I think, and I was a unique voice in the space, I was able to monetize within the first month that I launched. I had people waiting that were willing to sponsor my show.

And I was starting to get offers of people who wanted to, companies that wanted to partner with my show, I was able to make more than my new salary within the first year. So that actually was, it was, yeah, I mean, it just, it felt so good. It was like this moment of, of just, okay, I, I made the right decision.

It was scary. And I remember my, my former boss, he, he was, he seemed worried for me. He said, I shouldn’t jump out of a plane without a parachute. And to me, it was like, well, I’ll just build one on the way down, I’ll make it work. I just believe. That’s what entrepreneurs do is we jump out of the plane with no parachute on the way down. I really believed in it. And so if you have something that you really believe in. 

[34:26] And that you’ve tested, like it wasn’t like I didn’t test the market. I was doing this as a hobby and it was clearly working. I’m just so grateful that I ventured out. But the primary source of my revenue is sponsorships. And I’m very, very picky about who sponsors the show.

I want it to be something that I actually would use. Like if it’s a product, I want to make sure that I would use it before I basically sell it to other people to use. And so that sometimes closes off opportunities. I mean, I can’t even tell you. People could probably imagine when you’re working in an industry like crypto, there are meme tokens and new things launching every single day. And they’ll reach out to you in your DMs.

And I’ve had hundreds, if not thousands of these messages of like, hey, we’ll give you a certain percentage of the pre-mine. We’ll sponsor your show. And they want to pay you in these tokens. But I would never, ever accepted those because I feel like I would be leading the sheep to the slaughterhouse, and I wouldn’t be able to look at myself in the mirror and maybe I would profit. But at everyone’s expense, who’s my listener. And I’m so grateful that I always turned those away, even if they were lucrative. 

[35:33] SBF’s company wanted to sponsor me at one point. And I just, I decided to go, you know, it’s like the tortoise and the hare. I’d rather build slowly and I’d rather build with companies that have integrity and that I see long-term value in. And yeah, I’ve been very picky. In terms of structure, and I don’t mean financials, but in terms of how you structure that, and I don’t know if there’s a typical structure versus, you’re always testing different stuff. But is it like, hey, look, I will mention you on three episodes. I’ll mention you on one episode. Is it just a mention? Is it a dedicated ad? I’ve seen some dedicated ads in your content. 

Structuring Sponsorships 

[36:11] How long has that been the case? Tell me about how you structure and format these agreements. Yeah, so most of them are host-read ads. That’s primarily how I do my sponsorships. And again, I’m usually really excited about the company because I use their product.

And so, it’s a very genuine ad where I talk about my experience and why I use the product. And I really want it to provide value for them. So, the majority, I think almost all my sponsorships, they’re in all the episodes. If I put out an interview episode, they’re included and they’re priced out based on their placements. 

[36:43] Within the episode, the time. Yeah. So is it most expensive at the beginning, further in the episode, the least? Correct. Yes. And 30 seconds? Some are 60, some are 30, some are 20, some are 10. It really just depends. And you’ll charge more of the length.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure. Because I want to make it really customizable. And some of these companies are smaller and they have smaller budgets. But again, like I believe in them. I want to partner with them. And so, there’s always room to make something work, especially if you believe in each other. And my goal is to form long-term partnerships.

Like I’m grateful that some of my partners have been with me since the very start in 2021. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, a lot of them have said that, you know, I turn over a lot of customers for them. And that makes me proud and excited. And it’s ideal if you keep the sponsor, obviously, if they were new. Yeah. And you’re using the code, the custom code, Natalie123 or whatever it is. And then are you also incorporating an affiliate commission or are you purely pay for the sponsorship?

Some of them offer affiliate commissions. Like I said, I mean, each sponsorship can be very customized, and it depends on the budget. It depends on what reach they’re looking for. Some are more keen on being in video, more visual. Some don’t mind just being on audio. Some want more social media exposure. I mean, each sponsor is very, very different and their budgets are different. 

[38:03] Okay. So you will sometimes say, okay, well, look, we could just do audio if you prefer that or the budget’s not there for video. So you’ll have that as like a down sell is what I think I heard. I used to, yeah. But right now all of my sponsors are audio and video. And otherwise you’ll also, I believe, like bundle it sounds like where it’s audio plus video plus social. Yeah. Anything else ever in the bundle? 

[38:24] Sometimes I do speaking engagements or webinars. Some of the sponsors host like educational events and I’ll come in and speak at them or I’ll promote their conference. That’s a win win. Yeah. So there are a lot of different opportunities, again, to partner, especially in an industry that has a lot of in-person events. How often do you speak? 

Speaking Engagements and Coaching 

[38:41] Um, so last year I was speaking about once a month. Oh, wow. I’m trying to slow it down a little bit just because it’s so much travel and it makes it a little bit more challenging with the podcast, but I really enjoy that. I love speaking. It’s really, really fun. Okay. And so are you purely monetizing through sponsorships and occasional affiliate commissions? Or is there also, I’d imagine there’s probably also some revenue being generated from viewership through the platforms themselves. Yeah. So, YouTube, um, I generate ad revenue from YouTube, which has been great.

I do speak engagements, and I also do one-on-one coaching and mentorship and small group sessions like that. So yeah, I mean, here in St. Louis, actually, I held a seminar for what is Bitcoin in September. And it’s just, it makes me giggle to think about it because it was in September. The price of Bitcoin was about 50 something thousand. We had about 100 people attend at the Ritz-Carlton and anyone who invested in Bitcoin that day doubled their money. How about it? 

[39:35] Thanks for sharing all of that. Oh, training, coaching. What type of consulting and training do you do? Some people want more personalized, just educational information. And so I will get on a Zoom with them. And again, I customize it. Do they want a more formal presentation focused on how to buy Bitcoin, how to custody Bitcoin? Do they want to better understand mining or energy use? Do they want to understand the macro side? I mean, I have presentations ready to go for any topics.

I’ve done so many different talks. So yeah, they can hire me for a one-on-one session, a three-on-one session, a small group, an institution. I’m speaking at a college next week. So yeah, it’s lots of different opportunities. I’m not nearly as close to the space as you are, but I guess I’m surprised that there’s a demand for that.

But on the other hand, I’m not because it’s such a hot topic and everybody wants to better understand if it’s a good investment or not. So, it sounds like you get a lot of requests to come on and just educate people one-to-one or one to a group on what this stuff is, what a blockchain is, things like that? Well, I mean, think about it.

You could go to a conference, or you could watch someone’s YouTube channel, and you can learn from the content that’s already there. But imagine getting to just actually have a Zoom call with that person and ask whatever question you want or say, hey, will you give me a personalized presentation on this subject? And I’ll create that for them and dedicate the time. And so, yeah, absolutely. It’s cool. 

The SEO Challenge 

[41:01] Very interesting. Okay, so you touched on this earlier. I wanted to talk about YouTube and SEO, and I could just tell you were just chomping at the bit to talk SEO. You knew I was an SEO guy. Is that what it is? Well, I’m trying to learn it. I’m like, I’m an SEO student right now. Okay, I’ll trade you then, right? We can swap consults. Not that this is classic SEO, but let’s go back to those thumbnails. What have you learned? And let me just preface this for the audience. The thumbnails matter more than you want them to. It’s almost irritating to me how much the thumbnail matters, but it does.

So, what have you learned along the way with thumbnails and what’s your current approach to them? So, I’ve experimented with thumbnails, and I have to give a shout out to my amazing producer for YouTube. His name’s Aaron Bender and he makes all of my thumbnails. We sort of brainstorm, and I come up with ideas for titles that I think will work. And what’s great that YouTube recently started doing is a tester. I don’t know if you saw this, but you can put up three thumbnails and it actually generates which one works best for your audience and it tests it for you. And so that’s been really cool. So, I actually create three thumbnails with three different headlines just to see what works best. 

[42:13] And yeah, I mean, for mine, it’s pretty basic because it features the guest and whatever the topics are that we cover, but you have to always think about SEO. And this is the part where I feel a little bit, it’s like, it’s like you love it and you hate it because you don’t want to do clickbait, right? I don’t want to do that. I have very thoughtful conversations and a lot of them go into just a range of different topics.

But of course, if you put something like crash, crash is coming or, you know, Bitcoin to $500 million, like that’s going to get people, but I don’t want to deploy that too much. In some cases, it’s very authentic. Like the viewer says, a crash is coming, and we discuss why they think that. But it just stinks when you see all these videos and it reeks of clickbait. And it’s not even reflective of what the content’s actually about. So that’s a really, it’s a tough challenge because I try to be authentic.

But coming up with SEO titles when you’re in one specific genre and you want to be unique every week, it’s difficult. Let’s get in the weeds with that a little bit. And look, if you don’t want the nuances, feel free to skip a minute and a half, but the devils in the details with this stuff, right? So, well, I guess I could have your thumbnails in front of me, but, and okay, I do. 

[43:31] And it looks like you’ve settled on a full, the full thumbnail is the two faces, which is funny because I was about to switch to the exact same thing. Yeah. So, is that did you work your way up to that where ultimately you were like the two faces is optimal or have you always done it that way?

So, what I used to do is I used to request like a headshot of my guests and then I would have my headshot and then their headshot next to me. But then those started to feel very repetitive because my headshot’s always the same. 

[44:01] And I don’t know, it just, it didn’t always look like the person in the show. Right. LinkedIn photos don’t always work. Yeah. Yeah. Or like, you know, someone has a very serious face, whatever.

So, I wanted it to feel more organic from the actual show. And so Aaron started to get screen grabs from the actual interviews and then he would put text over it. And I think he makes them look really, really clean. And for me, it’s just trying to come up with that title that’s going to bring viewers in. But again, I cover a lot of the same topics. So how many times can you write, you know, this interview is about Bitcoin, basically. So, hold that thought on titles.

I noticed what you’re not doing, at least not currently, is the like surprise look. And look, guilty. I’ve been trying it. Again, it’s like you’re trying to walk that balance of what they say you should do. You’re trying to stop the scroll. So maybe if you’re making a funny face or animated, maybe that’ll work. But it’s like, at what 

cost to your brand? Can you do it without looking like a goofball? So, I think it’s like served us okay, better than when I was just doing static headshots from like LinkedIn and stuff. But I’m about to, I think, just get away with it and do the shots from the interview, which seems to be what you settled on, so. Yeah, I just, I don’t wanna look funny or, I don’t know. It’s not a comedy podcast, right? Yeah, it’s a more serious show. And I just, for shock value, I just feel like it’s not authentic. 

[45:25] So we just pull screen grabs from the actual interview. I noticed that the wording on the image is different than the title in SEO, which again, very much in the weeds, very nuanced, but I’ve often grappled with, well, why not just put the same, if I’m choosing the right SEO title for the written text, why not have it be the same on the image? So, what have you, what’s been your approach to the text that goes on the image?

I might be totally wrong on this, but what I’ve been told and read about YouTube is that the more words and the more that you can get out there, the better because something might click with the algorithm. So, if you have- In the written title. Right. Written versus the visual. So, if the visual says something, but then on the written, you can kind of expand it or say something else, then you have a better chance of that reaching.

Because if something’s trending and you don’t have it in the title, but you have it in the image, then your video could go to that trending topic. But maybe you don’t have it in the image, but you have it in the title or in the subtitle. So I try to just have as much information as possible while not overloading the titles. 

[46:33] And it looks like your approach to the text on the thumbnail is you’re doing a little bit of the classic attention-grabbing headline. And based on what you said earlier, as long as it’s true, it’s actually being discussed. Yeah. But like you are trying to create a little bit of shock value in that regard, it looks like. Yeah. I mean, you got to play some of the game, right? Right. I mean, sometimes the guests make it easy for you, right?

Like I had a recent guest on, and he literally predicted $5 million per Bitcoin and that’s a perfect title. I mean, who wouldn’t want to listen to a show about how Bitcoin is going to $5 million? Well, that’s what we’re going to title this now. Natalie says $5 million per Bitcoin. Yeah. Thank you.

And then others, like I said, I’ve had guests who are analyzing the economy, and they really think that there’s a crazy crash on the horizon or Great Depression 2.0. And unfortunately, we are voyeuristic creatures, and we respond to doom and gloom. And so sometimes, you know, that’s been the title that’s worked, but it just depends.

Yeah. Lord knows our news stations aren’t reluctant to use similar tactics. And I’m looking at your notes underneath and it looks like you guys are putting a good amount of effort. Yes. That’s Erin. Very helpful. Thank you, Erin. Good job. Yeah. In summarizing what’s discussed, linking to multiple social profiles, subscribe to the newsletter, all the CTAs in there, some emojis that make people feel happy. Yeah. So, all the things. 

[47:59] Yeah. And I did a little bit of homework. So did Aaron. We looked at what looks good aesthetically to us on other pages and what kind of format do we want. We obviously want the sponsors to be in there. We want a biography. We want the list of topics because one of those keywords could help someone find the video. So we’re very thoughtful in putting that out. And then Aaron does something very important, which sounds small, but it’s very important. He always adds a little comment and pins it at the top of the video saying, I’m not going to reach out to you asking you for money.

And if there are impersonators in this thread, it’s not me. So, I’m very grateful that he adds that to every video. It doesn’t look like you put the sponsors at the top. I’d imagine that’s it for SEO purposes, right? You know, I think I experimented at one point, maybe a year or two ago with putting the sponsors right off the top, but I feel like people are looking at, they’re looking for what the video is about. They’re not looking for a link.

So, I put them a little bit lower, but they’re in there. Okay. This has been great. You’re a wealth of information. Just a few more things. Sure. How much are you in analytics? 

[49:08] At the end of every month. Yeah, I have a report. Yeah. So, I compile one with the help of Aaron where we look at everything. We look at how many impressions. We look at what videos perform the best, whether the videos were older videos that were published maybe last year or a couple years ago versus the brand-new ones for that month. So, everything gets reported to me and I keep everything in an Excel spreadsheet.

And then some of my sponsors actually want to see the analytics. And so, I file a report with them, and I show them on each different platform how we’ve performed. And do you make a conscious effort not to iterate too frequently so that you have like adequate data? Because that can be one of the challenges too. Oh, let’s tweak our approach to headlines. Let’s tweak our approach to the thumbnails. Let’s tweak our approach to the show notes. And then you’re not even sure which variable is helping. 

[49:58] No, I mean, my format and style has been the same for a while. The only thing we added was shorties. So now I actually have a new metric that I can share, which is exciting because it boosts your numbers immediately.

So, if you’re going from making no shorties to all of a sudden creating shorties that are funneling people back to the full episode, that’s a whole new metric and chart that I can present to sponsors saying, look how many views I got on this. And it boosts the overall channel, which is really good. So, once I started to create shorties, it actually boosted my numbers across the board.

And then, of course, you separate everything out. How many views did you get for the full episode? How many did you get for the clips? How many did you get for this and that and the different platforms? But the more you have, I mean, the more content that you actually generate and put out there, the higher your views go. And it’s pretty self-explanatory. Are you using any third-party tools for optimization or analytics or just YouTube’s dashboard? I use YouTube’s dashboard, X’s dashboard, and my RSS feed dashboard. So, I use the platforms to determine the views, yeah. And how about SEO keywords? 

[51:04] So that I use AI to help me. Yeah. But as far as like keywording, so that’s actually an interesting question. And I can, I, maybe I can pose it to you. So, in YouTube, where you go down to the keyword section, when you’re creating and building the video, it says that it won’t, it won’t generate or leads on the video if you put in keywords. So, we don’t put in any keywords. Is that incorrect? 

[51:29] So all of the day-to-day, my content marketer, my content manager, Laura Handel, shout out Laura. I don’t know what I do without her. So usually, I just have my biweekly call with Laura and ramble on about things I want, and she makes it come to life. Wow. So, I can’t say specifically, I can tell you that we use TubeBuddy. 

[51:51] I can tell you that, yeah, TubeBuddy is one of the prevailing platforms, most market share for YouTube SEO keywords that help guide what we put in the titles or at least consider different things. Oh, wow. But really, I’m a big believer and frankly, I just know that topic modeling is the key to really effective search rankings. It goes beyond finding keywords and putting them in places.

It’s much more about taking a topic, understanding the subtopics underneath of it and finding ways to lace those subtopics throughout the show notes, throughout any web pages you might put it on, throughout kind of everything you do to create a more holistic view to the search engines and various crawlers of what certain content is about. So we take a topic modeled approach and happy to chat with you more about it. Yeah, I have to research some of that for sure, because there are some trending topics that have nothing to do with Bitcoin, but that we discuss on the show. 

[52:52] And so it’s really important that I find strategies to try to get viewers that are listening to the other topic, but then, you know, kind of funnel them into the Bitcoin information. So, I’m afraid we probably only have a couple minutes left before we do some of our new bonus content. And you’ll have to subscribe to us on Instagram and TikTok soon to get some of the bonus content. Probably as a good final question, what advice would you give inspiring creators who are just starting out to help them grow a YouTube channel? 

[53:23] I think find what you’re really passionate about where you can make an impact. There are so many different industries where every voice matters because someone will relate to that voice. So, for me, it was like I was one of the only women talking about Bitcoin in a way that was very approachable to the mainstream audience. And I leaned into that. I did not lean away from it. I wasn’t like, oh, no, I’m not technical enough. I’m not this. 

[53:47] There are people who are wondering the same things that I ask. And so lean into your passion. And if you are passionate about something, become an expert in it. I mean, people call me a Bitcoin expert, but I feel like I’m still always learning. I’m humble about it because there’s always something more I could learn. And that’s why I continue to do the show to learn as much as I can and challenge myself. But learn everything you can about the topic.

If you’re passionate about cooking and you want to start a cooking channel, well, what do you specifically like to cook and what makes you different and sets you apart from the other content creators that are out there. And then lean into that and practice, practice, do it like over and over and over again, because repetition matters, and it makes you better. It allows you to hone your craft and then look at the feedback that you’re getting. Are people saying, oh, we want more of this, or maybe they’re giving you some constructive criticism that you could listen to. 

[54:39] It’s not always easy to hear criticism, but sometimes it’s really what you need and just pay attention to it and then lean into it. Yeah. Something you’re passionate about, I mean, it’s one of these things where people 

The Power of Authenticity 

[54:49] might go, yeah, yeah, yeah, I heard it. But it’s really, really important. And I can identify at least a few reasons why. I mean, first of all, you need something that you’re going to commit to. And, you know, not everybody has the luxury of doing shows about Bitcoin right during a bull market at the perfect time, right? So like you need that thing that you’re going to be inspired to even when times are tough and viewership’s low to carry you through.

Yes. But even more than that, I think this might be one of the main ideas that so far is coming out of the various interviews we’ve already done on growing a YouTube channel. And that is this idea of authenticity. And hear me out on this. And again, authenticity is one of these things where people are like, yeah, yeah, I get it. You got to be authentic, right? But here’s the thing. 

[55:33] If you’re really motivated by the content, it allows you to kind of let down your guard and just be into it. And that comes through. Yes. When that comes through, you’re being your most authentic self. And a lot of times, that’s the only thing that really can differentiate you.

Whenever you’re either creating content or selling something that’s relatively commoditized, it’s that energy that the individual brings to it in their truest form that makes somebody say, I want to buy from that person. I want to watch that person. And so like the more you’re genuinely into it, the more authentic you are, the more authentic you are, the more you can differentiate in a commoditized content stream. I completely agree with you.

And today I think especially with video platforms, people get in their heads, and they decide to be all scripted and it doesn’t come off natural and real. And they’d rather just see you being yourself speaking from the heart. And so that’s important too, because you can write up the script and have your teleprompter and sound very official, but is it really believable?

And is that really you? So, the more that you can just be yourself. I mean, today I think online, the less produced content actually performs better than the overproduced content. 

[56:50] You’re here. And that’s a fabulous note to end on. Natalie, you’ve been amazing. Thank you so much for being here. And you got some extra time to do some bonus content? sure yeah awesome alright well go subscribe on the other channels to get that stuff and Natalie thanks again so much. 

[57:04] Music.